Curse

Byron · Dec 12, 2006, 05:40 PM // 17:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by ubard

a glimmer infuser is just plain silly.

they spike? - you use infuse.

they apply normal pressure? - orison is nearly good as glimmer here... and NOT an elite!

I have to respectfully disagree. Infuse stops spikes, glimmer doesn't. Glimmer is effective anti-pressure, orison isnt. You're typical thumper will be plowing out almost as much damage in one second that an orison can heal (which is its pathetic cast time). That's why we normally love RoF.

Quote:

@Byron: yeah, i've tried it recently too, it's all fun and games until you fight a grenth dervish. Then it get's ugly.

Good point - those guys will be everywhere in winterfest. Of course, a boon is still mildly effective without boon up.

Zuranthium · Dec 12, 2006, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by ubard

@Zuranthium: love your stuff there zboy, but that WoH is just plain hacks

Hey, Restore Condition has a 2 second recharge, does it not?

EDIT: Although, only a 3 second recharge would be needed for WoH if you made it a bit more efficient when the conditional bonus isn't met.

~Z

ubard · Dec 12, 2006, 05:59 PM // 17:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

I have to respectfully disagree. Infuse stops spikes, glimmer doesn't. Glimmer is effective anti-pressure, orison isnt. You're typical thumper will be plowing out almost as much damage in one second that an orison can heal (which is its pathetic cast time). That's why we normally love RoF.

and i have to respectfully reaffirm my opinion.

i didn't say glimmer stops spikes, quite the opposite, i said it fits niether role properly, while still claiming the title "elite".

i said it's NEARLY as good as orison.

of course glimmer is better than orison... but it's elite.

LoD (one of the few balanced heal skills) is about a bajillion times better than Glimmer at healing pressure. (with the added perk of being able to cast an almost orison level heal on overextended warriors.)

a huge flaw in the healing prayers line is also it's non-elites, compare prot spirit and healing breeze. both enchantments, both 10E. one is useful, one is a HoT heal other. There is no contest. (maybe kindof unfair to compare one of the most commonly used monk enchantments with what i consider a skill that is there simply to confuse newer monks, but still.)

currently a ZB PROT monk can HEAL as well if not better than a healer. Nothing wrong with ZB, it's perfectly fine. But healing prayers is still very nearly garbage.

@Zuranthium: well, RC is more "conditional"... hehe... pun fully intended.

Zuranthium · Dec 12, 2006, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by ubard

@Zuranthium: well, RC is more "conditional"... hehe... pun fully intended.

But, just like Divert Hexes, it's GODLY when actually needed. Against a build with a lot of conditions I'd still want RC over a WoH that had a 2 second recharge.

In any case, I think WoH sucks currently. Even if the non-Elite Healing spells got my suggested buffs, it would still be a sub-par bar when compared to Zealous Benediction.

So I'd say it should change to either a 2 second recharge or a 3 second recharge with a bit more healing on the non-conditional side.

~Z

(I should, like, preview all of my posts from now on so I don't have to keep Editing them, haha)

Seamus Finn · Dec 12, 2006, 08:53 PM // 20:53

... A lot of these views are totally disreagarding the reality of monk bars which I pointed out earlier. The healing line is already in almost any "prot bar' in the form of Gift of Health. Even if I run ZB I still take gift. And Glimmer is worth the elite slot because of it's cast time; it's really that simple. LoD is nice but works completely differently. Glimmer allows you to keep a RoF comparable skill in a heavily specced Healing prot hybrid bar where is only takes maybe 5 points in prot for a workable Prot Spirit(again, a good monk bar these days uses both skill lines). Also, having glimmer works well with Infuse and allows at least one more heal with an interesting utility(i.e. NOT ORISON). Dwayna's Kiss is a great skill for running into heavy hex pressure or in a build with lots of enchants, for example. I would still love a 1 second recharge on Glimmer though, but I think it's viable with 2 depending on the needs of your build.

By the way, the change suggested for Words of Comfort would be very imbalanced, in my opinion.

Thomas.knbk · Dec 12, 2006, 09:17 PM // 21:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

By the way, the change suggested for Words of Comfort would be very imbalanced, in my opinion.

Reduce the bonus healing, and it's not more unbalanced than Dwayna's Kiss. Don't reduce it too much though.

Zuranthium · Dec 12, 2006, 09:17 PM // 21:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

By the way, the change suggested for Words of Comfort would be very imbalanced, in my opinion.

How so? It would just make the skill into a Mend Ailment that heals for more health (and recharges a second quicker) but doesn't actually remove a condition. It would actually still be inferior to Mend in most cases, imo. Without any conditions on your target it's a VERY inefficient heal and when there IS a condition on your target you usually want it to be removed. You could cast a 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 point heal on someone with blindness/cripple and it still wouldn't solve the problem.

EDIT: Also, that's why Healing spells need to be great at actually healing...the line can't do anything else at all (well, other than Rezzing). The prot line has condition removal, hex removal, "blocking" spells, and the ability to protect people before the actual damage comes.

That's also why any monk should have a mix of both Healing and Protection abilities. You need to have "answers" to problems like the Protection line does and you need to be able to simply pump health into people. Any monk with a Healing elite should still dip into Protection for a condition removal and any monk with a Protection elite should still dip into Healing for Gift of Health or Infuse (unless you're running Divine Boon, then you can get away with all Protection spells...of course even then having Gift of Health is not a bad idea).

~Z

Blame the Monks · Dec 13, 2006, 01:53 AM // 01:53

I agree Zur, and good post. The fundamental problem with the healing line isn't the raw healing power of the skills -- it is that raw healing isn't anywhere near as valuable to good players as skills that reduce, remove, or prevent damage. Goh + heal party spam can control the mop up damage while leaving your monks free to utilize their brains with prot skills.

A great monk on a pure healer really isn't much better than an average healer, but a great monk on a prot can get much more mileage out of prot skills than an average monk -- preprotting, recognizing what prots work against what damage type, removing key conditions and hexes and not wasting energy on simple degen, and so on. Healers simply make bars go up.

IMO, skills like healers boon and holy haste missed the point. What the healing line needed was more skills like seed and fewer skills like orison.

Etrik · Dec 13, 2006, 02:23 AM // 02:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

I agree Zur, and good post. The fundamental problem with the healing line isn't the raw healing power of the skills -- it is that raw healing isn't anywhere near as valuable to good players as skills that reduce, remove, or prevent damage. Goh + heal party spam can control the mop up damage while leaving your monks free to utilize their brains with prot skills.

A great monk on a pure healer really isn't much better than an average healer, but a great monk on a prot can get much more mileage out of prot skills than an average monk -- preprotting, recognizing what prots work against what damage type, removing key conditions and hexes and not wasting energy on simple degen, and so on. Healers simply make bars go up.

IMO, skills like healers boon and holy haste missed the point. What the healing line needed was more skills like seed and fewer skills like orison.

Though I do agree with Zur, HB+RC/DH still works wonders in HA, and i'd take HB over WoH any day. Mainly cause HB+Heal Other=WoH without the <50 req.

Senator Tom · Dec 13, 2006, 04:37 AM // 04:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Mending - Increase regen value...up to 6 pips a second with 14 healing.

Hello Jesus.

Zuranthium · Dec 13, 2006, 05:05 AM // 05:05

Hello, Mary.

You know you want to see Mending become good. Don't deny.

~Z

.defekt · Dec 13, 2006, 05:08 AM // 05:08

Mending is overpowered, imo

>.>

But really, I don't see the point of changing it. Nobody would use it anyways.

Thomas.knbk · Dec 13, 2006, 06:34 AM // 06:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by .defekt

Mending is overpowered, imo

>.>

But really, I don't see the point of changing it. Nobody would use it anyways.

Yeah, a maintained enchant would need to be wtfpnage in order to use it. +6 regen isn't that great imo. It would make life easier for Forge Runners, but it wouldn't see PvP play

Seamus Finn · Dec 13, 2006, 07:19 AM // 07:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

How so? It would just make the skill into a Mend Ailment that heals for more health (and recharges a second quicker) but doesn't actually remove a condition. It would actually still be inferior to Mend in most cases, imo. Without any conditions on your target it's a VERY inefficient heal and when there IS a condition on your target you usually want it to be removed. You could cast a 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 point heal on someone with blindness/cripple and it still wouldn't solve the problem.

~Z

It wouldn't be like mend ailment at all. Mend ailment needs two condition for a heal to kick in outside of divine favor, and thats not to mention you would be saving it mostly to remove conditions that were a problem anyways, not getting heals out to relieve pressure. Words of Comfort would be used against condition pressure, but as it is, conditions are so common that the bonus makes it a decent heal in the line(it really isn't hard to get the bonus; I would say a good deal easier than dwayna's). Dwayna's can be strong consistently if your team build uses a lot of enchants, but if you happen to fight pure hex pressure(which is rare), it nearly counters the whole build. Condition pressure is way more common and a part of every build. Plus its far easier to stack a good amount of conditions on multiple targets(how those builds can actually win). If Comfort were changed to what you suggested, I would bring it almost every time because I would overcome a huge part of MOST pressure builds and outright own certain builds(the non thumper ranger heavy builds) with one skill that isn't even elite. Oh, did I forget to mention that Words is already self targeting?

Having said this, explain to me how it wouldn't be imbalanced?

Thomas.knbk · Dec 13, 2006, 04:49 PM // 16:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

Having said this, explain to me how it wouldn't be imbalanced?

If conditions are so common, how come you dont bring WoC every time as it is? It would be a good skill against condition pressure, but it'd also have a downside: you need to leave the conditions on the target in order to get the bonus, making it balanced.

Zuranthium · Dec 13, 2006, 05:24 PM // 17:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

It wouldn't be like mend ailment at all. Mend ailment needs two condition for a heal to kick in outside of divine favor, and thats not to mention you would be saving it mostly to remove conditions that were a problem anyways, not getting heals out to relieve pressure. Words of Comfort would be used against condition pressure

Uhh....your target has a Deep Wound. Would you rather heal him with Words of Comfort or remove it with Mend?

Your target has Bleeding and Poison. Would you rather heal with Words of Comfort and get about 70 more points of healing in the short term or remove one of those with Mend and prevent more damage over time?

Your target has Disease and Crippled with a Warrior on his face. Words of Comfort gets you 70 more points right away, while Mend removes the crippled and allows the target to kite and mitigate more than 70 points of damage.

------

Sure, the new Words of Comfort would be great against condition pressure. In almost every case, though, it's no more more "overpowered" than any normal condi removal spell. The majority of the time I'd say it's actually less powerful, which is balanced out by the spell being able to double as a (very inefficient) straight-up heal when the target has no conditions.

~Z

Zuranthium · Dec 13, 2006, 06:31 PM // 18:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

Yeah, a maintained enchant would need to be wtfpnage in order to use it. +6 regen isn't that great imo. It would make life easier for Forge Runners, but it wouldn't see PvP play

At least we all agree that Mending needs to be improved?

Anyway, it could be useful.

~Z

Seamus Finn · Dec 13, 2006, 09:52 PM // 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

If conditions are so common, how come you dont bring WoC every time as it is? It would be a good skill against condition pressure, but it'd also have a downside: you need to leave the conditions on the target in order to get the bonus, making it balanced.

Why don't I bring it everytime.. let's see.. maybe because the bonus only registers once? If conditions are everywhere, it's comparable to a self-targeting gift of health. So unless I'm running a healing a elite, I would bring Gift. If the bonus stacks and I can get 200 hp heals for 5 energy now there is quite a difference. To The post after this, the answer is quite simple:

Monks, in most intelligent builds, do not handle mass condition removal. If you need that in your build you have it elsewhere(a draw on a mesmer for instance). Of course, if there's a deep wound on a target, I would want to remove it(assuming it's not covered and I'm not running RC) since the target it likely getting spiked, but bleeding and poison on one target? Umm yeah I would use the proposed new rigged WoC because if a build can put poison/bleeding on one target and it isn't a stupid build it can put it everywhere quickly(apply poison, screaming shot, barbed arrows, melandrus yada yada yada -- have fun with you dismiss conditions there). Again, blinds? that's a draw's problem, or if I have the energy to spare(as if a blinded warrior is a target in need of healing anyhow). Cripple I would remove only on soft targets since they are likely getting trained or again, if my energy allowed it. So sorry, I'm not buying any of these responses. If anet wants to change this, I won't complain... I'll just use it.

l Batman l · Dec 13, 2006, 10:02 PM // 22:02

A lot of people don't realize, every skill is not meant for higher levels of GvG.

Skills need to be balanced for PVE and other PVP arenas as well.

Etrik · Dec 14, 2006, 03:04 AM // 03:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Uhh....your target has a Deep Wound. Would you rather heal him with Words of Comfort or remove it with Mend?

Your target has Bleeding and Poison. Would you rather heal with Words of Comfort and get about 70 more points of healing in the short term or remove one of those with Mend and prevent more damage over time?

Your target has Disease and Crippled with a Warrior on his face. Words of Comfort gets you 70 more points right away, while Mend removes the crippled and allows the target to kite and mitigate more than 70 points of damage.

------

Sure, the new Words of Comfort would be great against condition pressure. In almost every case, though, it's no more more "overpowered" than any normal condi removal spell. The majority of the time I'd say it's actually less powerful, which is balanced out by the spell being able to double as a (very inefficient) straight-up heal when the target has no conditions.

~Z

Let's not forget, Mend heals for 70 (about as much as WoC does atm?), while removing a condition. Therefore MC>WoC. What's the point in comforting someone over their pain/grief/whatever when you can just take it away?